CATK NDEAM TAKEOVER: Ciji Gardner

0:00:01.0 Torin: We've been about this work: Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, shared through the voices of a White woman and a Black man, we bring lived experiences. We have pursued D&I progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and The King to cover news, tips from colleagues and host incredible guests. Listeners count on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it. Julie, kick off the show.

[applause]

0:00:37.7 Torin: Welcome to Crazy and The King. Now I'm missing my podcast partner, but I actually have a surprise and special co-host on today. I know it sounds a little bit different because you might be wondering whether or not you can continue to trust Julie and I, because Julie and I said that we would have some guest voices, shout out to you, Yvette Pegues, for doing the very first Crazy and The King takeover last week. You and your guest did an amazing job. I learned something when I listened to that episode, and I so appreciate you for stepping up and doing it and doing it in such a beautiful, beautiful and informative way. So Julie and I, we promised that in the month of October that we would turn every episode over to someone from the disability community. And we are not going to let you down.

0:01:46.3 Torin: I have a co-host that is going to join me after I run through some of our pre-show or pre-conversation shenanigans. And today we're gonna be talking about anxiety. Anxiety is not a shenanigan. Anxiety is something that is very much so real and learned, in my preparation for the episode, some of the common triggers for that, it happens at work, of course, changing in role and responsibility. It happens in people's living arrangements. Anxiety can be spurred because of the birth of a child, family, relationship problems, major emotional setbacks, just a variety of different things that can trigger an individual's anxiety, and my co-host for this episode, well, she experiences anxiety. And so we're gonna talk about it from her professional vantage point. So, before we get to that I do want to just bring your attention to the fact that the work never stops.

0:03:06.3 Torin: There is just never a shortage of instances that demand our attention around diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. One word, humanity. One word, one, humanity. There's never a shortage of reasons for us to better focus on humanity. There's never a shortage. We don't need data, we don't need a bunch of charts, there's just never a shortage of examples that we can point to, some people even experience that remind us that we can be better humans. Out in LA, president of what I believe to be the city council, president of the city council caught making racist remarks. Actually, this audio was leaked, and my understanding is that the audio is well over a year old. But behind closed doors, Los Angeles City Council President Nury Martinez, made openly racist remarks about some of her council colleagues and the Los Angeles District Attorney spoke crassly about them, private conversation.

0:04:39.4 Torin: So, you know what happens. She's thinking that the mic is not hot. And when I say the mic like a person in the vicinity, wherever they were, she's thinking that everyone in the room was, I guess, a co-conspirator. Someone who would be supportive, no one who would reveal some of the things that she said. Yeah, I just, I always wondered like, what goes through individual's minds when they are saying the things that they are saying, and then immediately, and in this case, not immediately, but immediately, once the tape was released earlier in the week, immediately asking for forgiveness. What goes through their mind? So she actually wants to stay on the City Council. They see otherwise, there are a number of people that are on the City Council that are like, "You gotta step down." So she has stepped down from being the president of the City Council, and she's trying to hold on. She's asking for forgiveness. She wants to remain on the City Council, but some of the folks in LA are not having it.

0:06:10.3 Torin: Something else that came up, earlier this week, an article overall on MIT Sloan Management Review website. The article is titled, How to Fix a Toxic Culture, subtitled, to address toxicity in the workplace, research shows there are three critical drivers that companies should focus on. Those drivers, now, listen, I don't want you to be surprised when I say this, but there are three critical drivers. Those drivers, according to the article, leadership, social norms and work design. Leadership, social norms, and work design.

0:06:57.9 Torin: Do I need to talk about it? Nah, I ain't gonna talk about it, just go read the article. Go to MIT Sloan's website, you can get it at sloanreview.mit.edu. Again, sloanreview.mit.edu, look for the article, "How to Fix a Toxic Culture." Actually, the article is dated September 28, I don't give a damn if you read one of the other many articles that they have, read them. Just go ahead and read them.

0:07:27.8 Torin: And this week was World Mental Health Day, and so the World Health Organization actually put a page up on their website, and I kinda smiled because I felt like the page was a little lacking in terms of intensity. So you could go look at it if you'd like, but World Mental Health Day was this week, the World Health Organization, who.international, they did put a website up or a page up on their website, so feel free to go and check it out. I ran through the articles quickly because I wanna get into this unchartered territory.

0:08:09.2 Torin: You see, I've never had a conversation around anxiety one on one, not one on a mic. I may have had one just in passing, if you will, with a friend, I may have had one with what I consider to be an associate or an employee of one of my clients, but I've never really had a substantive conversation around anxiety on the microphone, to my knowledge. So I am going to go into unchartered territory today to have this conversation with my co-host, my guest, my special person, who is going to join me just after this break.

0:09:01.1 Torin: All right, awesome. So you all, as I shared with you, you weren't supposed to really hear my voice this month, all of this month, because what Julie and I wanted to do, we wanted to turn Crazy and The King over to people from the disability community. We really wanted to center and amplify their voices, their narrative, their experiences, the acumen that they bring to the conversation because I am a firm believer, even as much as you all know me for being a person in the D&I, DEIB, I&D space. I'm a firm believer and one of the first to admit that none of us has a monopoly on how best to approach the work of D&I, and so I always say run from any individual who says they have all of the solutions. Run from any individual who says that they are the absolute dynasty around doing D&I work. And so today, I get to say now, I'ma elevate her just in this brief moment, but I get to say my co-host is joining me, my boss is over in Paris somewhere, but my co-host is Ciji Gardner.

0:10:20.3 Torin: And I actually had a chance to indirectly meet Ciji last week, I was on or at a client event, and while on stage prior to delivering my message, I challenged Ciji sitting to my far left back, back corner table, like the last table in the room. I challenged Ciji, I said, "Stand up, stand up, stand up." And she stood up and she had a bit of hesitation, a bit of trepidation, wasn't sure where I was going to take the conversation, but it was a beautiful experience. And as a result of that experience and her standing up, she today is co-hosting with me on Crazy and The King. Welcome to the episode Ciji, how are you?

0:11:11.9 Ciji Gardner: I am great. Thank you so much for having me.

0:11:14.8 Torin: You are most welcome. So I want you to give our listeners your version of an introduction. Tell them who you are in your own special way. And Ciji, I don't want you to do like the Twitter version, like the 140-character version. I want you to do the Ciji version that is head of the usher board, Church of God in Christ and you've got a chance to get on the mic and the usher doesn't get on the mic enough. So when we give the usher the mic, they are going to take it, Ciji, I want you to use the mic.

0:11:53.8 Ciji Gardner: Ahh! Awesome responsibility. So how I experienced that moment or came to that moment was I had not been in person for a long period of time, I really think it was pre-COVID since I had convened with colleagues so quite a bit of time had gone past. We have a high remote culture, great, but I was really coming to that event and feeling a lot of trepidation, but wanting to have some intention around what I wanted to get. And so when I saw you on the bill and was excited to hear what you had to say, something about what you brought to the room and kind of what I was hoping to, I don't know, manifest that day allowed me to say, "You know what, I'm gonna take a risk." I'm absolutely not the person who kinda puts the hand up first, jumps up, wants to speak in a room of a couple of hundred people, but I felt called to do so. And I'm first a believer, and so I just wanted to be open to the message and the DE&I message was really strong to me in that room that day.

0:13:15.1 Torin: Yeah. And in part that hesitation and trepidation, I haven't named it as of yet, and so this week's episode, we're focused on anxiety in the disability community, and is it safe, fair to say that part of that hesitation is because of your... Is it clinically diagnosed or is it self-diagnosed anxiety?

0:13:38.6 Ciji Gardner: Both. Several years ago, I wanna say probably a good 20 years ago, I absolutely was diagnosed with depression and anxiety, I even had a bout with medication, which I did not love. And so I really can identify triggers, I can identify burnout, I can identify when I'm going through those periods, insomnia, so COVID absolutely kind of heightened that and just made the world smaller and more unsure. And so, those things were exacerbated, so I started to feel it again in the last couple of years, but yeah, several years ago, clinically diagnosed, but only a couple of years ago would I even discuss it again with a doctor.

0:14:36.7 Torin: You know, as I was preparing for this week's episode, and I just went through a little bit of an exercise this morning, and I typed the word anxiety in my search bar while I was in my email client, and surprisingly, and I'm fairly new to Microsoft Outlook, and so what Microsoft Outlook rendered were all of the emails where the word anxiety sits somewhere in the message, whether it would be in the title, whether it would be in the subject, whether it would be mentioned in one of the articles. It showed me all of my emails where the word anxiety was present, and today. And this recording is happening before 1 o'clock, but today, I have no less than 20, I think it's like 23 emails where the word anxiety shows up at least one time in that email.

0:15:40.8 Torin: Now, here's what was interesting to me, for some, they may say, "Well, okay, well, 23 is not a big deal." And certainly, 23 is not necessarily a big deal because every single day I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 or 500 emails, get it, but what was interesting for me is that they weren't all white papers, they weren't articles, white papers, academic research, they were journalistic pieces, they were some newsletters, they were some articles from Forbes or Fortune, The Atlantic, if you will. It was a variety of emails. They were actually emails from clients or from people that I'm coaching, people that I receive messages from.

0:16:25.8 Torin: So, what are we missing? To me, I said, "Okay, well, that's... I don't know, 5%, 10%, maybe 15% of your message consumption or message receipts for the day. That's 15%, 20% of what you... " What are we missing Ciji, when we are or are not discussing anxiety?

0:16:55.1 Ciji Gardner: So anxiety in the workplace, anxiety as a Black woman, as a mother. So I'm married, three kids. I've got a step-son, I've got... We've got a blended family, so always had a lot going on. And then in terms of career, you remember that room one of very few people of color within that room, and so there's certainly a lot that goes, I feel with that. And so there is, I don't know, just a lot of pressure, and so that to me is the piece that maybe rounds it out of where that anxiety comes from and lives.

0:17:45.3 Torin: When you say the pressure, you mentioned a few dimensions, intersections, if you will, the mom, the wife, the professional, being in that room. You mentioned a number of intersections. And some listening may say, "I mean, come on, being a mom, just because you're Black, being a professional, being one of few in a room, is that really enough for us to be having a conversation? Is it really necessary for Torin and Julie to talk about anxiety? Do we need to really do this takeover thing?" I guess, I'm wondering, are we committed enough to the conversation? You are a person who lives with it and has had to live with it, and I wanna talk about that, but do you feel like we have, in the workplace, done enough to address this as well as many other unseen or hidden disabilities?

0:18:51.7 Ciji Gardner: Oh, I doubt that we've done enough. Personally, I've seen small efforts towards mental health. I know there's certainly more discussion around employee wellness and access to EAPs and all of that, but I have not...

0:19:09.8 Torin: EAPs, what's EAP?

0:19:11.4 Ciji Gardner: Employee Assistance Program. With different services.

0:19:12.4 Torin: Got it. Okay, got it.

0:19:13.9 Ciji Gardner: But no, because if I personally don't feel... Part of the thing that prompted me to stand up was you asked, "Reveal something that you've never revealed before to your colleagues."

0:19:27.0 Torin: Say that again. And I want you to say that for... I want you to say it again because I want people to hear that. I want people to know I stood in the room. I'm as authentic as they come, but even more so, not about me, about you and your bravery. So I want you to repeat what I said and then continue.

0:19:49.5 Ciji Gardner: You essentially dared... [laughter] You dared somebody to stand up and reveal something that they have not revealed to their colleagues before, and it was very nerve-racking, it was... Again, yes, it seems so benign. I did grow up in predominantly white schools. These are very benign things in this day and age, but they still impact an individual on a day to day basis. When you're one of few or you're, maybe more eyes on you or you're concerned about carrying other people's messages forward, I think those things can weigh on certain people and they certainly weigh on me. So, yeah, some of that, what I consider more mundane, it's been around for 20, 30, 40 years. Yeah, it still impacts individuals and still can be anxiety provoking when you're one of few.

0:20:50.6 Torin: And again, you said, no, we have not done enough in corporate America, in corporate corridors. And so, having lived with it, having matriculated, grown in your profession, being productive, certainly engaged, what could we do, if there was just one thing, what's one thing that we absolutely can do as leaders, as people who are supposed to be in a supportive... Maybe, Ciji as a person who doesn't have an HR related title. What's one thing that you've seen work that maybe not enough employers or others are implementing, exploring, considering, what's one thing that you might mention for them?

0:21:42.8 Ciji Gardner: You know what has been helpful for me or something that I really valued and it's only been in a couple of workplaces, was access to a coach. One was kind of resource or funded by the employer several years ago and one, I funded and it was a considerable amount of money. But I do think having some level of support that's outside of your kind of immediate team or immediate leadership culture team, it can be helpful but a place that understands your culture and where you can have more frank discussions, I think it helps to take the air out, or at least I found that helpful. That plus kind of some exercising and walking and kind of literally trying to force myself to change up on my mindset.

0:22:42.7 Torin: So I wanna see if I can get this question framed the right way. I struggled when I was trying to put it together, and you've actually sort of laid the foundation as my co-host today. You seriously have said COVID, it being the first time that you have been amongst colleagues in a few years, so you used the word COVID. You actually used a moment ago the phrase, mental health. I absolutely appreciated them and I want to bring those two together. Because for some, their... And just work with me on this. For some, their increased use of the word anxiety has been more attached to COVID and not mental health. People feeling like we're just more anxious because we've been shut up in our domiciles, we've been absent or devoid of personal contact, they have attached in... For some, not many, not all, but more of that use is attached to the event of COVID and not the presence of mental health. And that, because we are moving away from COVID and sort of returning to some degree of normalcy, my question is, are we being premature? Are we being dangerous or reckless so that I can really make a point by attaching it more to COVID and this too shall pass versus it's mental health, and it is here with us.

0:24:28.7 Ciji Gardner: Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely agree and I think it is mental health and it's here with us. And COVID had an impact and it's had a sustained impact, but it really was more of a reveal. For me, it just showed perhaps this ability to kind of keep going, keep going. I no longer had those same tools, I just I wasn't able to quite cover it up in a way that I... Maybe was previously. It forced me to really take stock and get some help, do things differently.

0:25:08.5 Torin: Can you elaborate on that? You know, when you talk about and use phrases like covered it up, it revealed, it forced me, these are all like action words. I'm not an English major, I don't know if those come in the verb category, the adverb category. I don't know which one they fit in, but I just know that you just used words that said, I had to do something. I had to do something. I had to do something. And so what was different? I know COVID was different, but what was different, because it would be easy, Ciji to just say, I got to spend more time with my beautiful children, my family. I got to get more stuff done. I saved maybe a little bit of money, a little less road rage or having to deal with that. It would be easy to just simply say, But why was it sparked? You were home, that is your happy place. For lack of knowing your living scenario, it's safe to say or one could assume that's your happy place. So, why did the last couple of years force you Ciji to have that honest and more vocal conversation?

0:26:30.8 Ciji Gardner: Even after I would say kind of on the tail end of COVID, I was a bit more... A little bit run down. But in some ways, COVID kind of energized me. To your point, we did save some money, we did cook more at home, things like that, but after that piece, things got really busy, at work there was just such an increase that the swing back was really big. And so I found myself working many hours. We were stretched. I was stretched, I think, across a couple of different roles, and so me personally, I personally was burning the candle at both ends, and it was very clear to me... Again, I was gaining weight, I was really not sleeping well. I was at the earlier part of the pandemic, I was drinking to excess, I really had to shift things, I was just so... I was just very, very anxious, it was not a... Just spinning. Just spinning. So I needed to shift gears. I really needed to shift gears.

0:27:42.4 Torin: Yeah, on the drinking thing, full transparency, y'all, my podcast partner and I, she's somewhere listening and smiling right now, because it is nothing for me to have a beverage while we are recording. Now, mind you, this is our traditional recording time, so it's nothing for me to have a beverage. I have almost a full bar in my office, I had to kind of look. So it's mine, I mean, it's my office, I work from home. Well, if I'm honest, I have a full bar at my physical office too, so... [chuckle] But I appreciate that acknowledgment and whatnot. So let's stay there in the quarter for a moment, work increased. You had to kind of shift some things and move around, but this isn't new to you, you did say that there was a bit of a low in your anxiety or certainly how it presented itself in your day-to-day. Talk about that just a little bit. You know, was this something that impacted you heavily when you were young, junior in your career, does it impact you when you maybe get a promotion and because you get the promotion, I'm now doing something new, trying to build a new relationship with my leader, so my anxiety shows up, just talk a bit about how personally for Ciji it shows up because I'm hoping that your interview and co-hosting with me today, I'm hoping that it's a bit of vocal therapy for others who may be experiencing it.

0:29:16.5 Ciji Gardner: Sure. When does it show up? I feel like it's present pretty frequently, but then I'll have some really acute time periods, just... Physically, it's gonna show up in heart racing, maybe before meetings or how you're presenting yourself, so... It's kind of ever-present. But yes, there are times where it has been much more significant. I'm a career changer, so I'm... My theme is that I love people, I love building teams, I love the world of talent, but I have done it at different entry points across my career, so being able to just again, that impostor syndrome or just that idea that you're trying to make sure that folks connect the dots between what your skillset is and what your experience is and what you can add to the table, those things bring me anxiety or have over different periods building my career.

0:30:27.9 Torin: So, do rituals tend to work for you to make things a little bit better, so when you mentioned anxiety... Yeah, you mentioned anxiety before meeting, so what sort of rituals might work for you, whether it be meeting-related, whether it be family-centered, something in the community, because this anxiety is not present only in one of those dimensions, I believe it's probably with you through many... If not all of them, what are some of the rituals that tend to work to bring you a bit of calm and peace?

0:31:00.7 Ciji Gardner: Yeah, I mean I'm a big planner. So you're right, my day has a lot of order to it, not to the point of kind of OCD, but definitely has a rhythm and has order to it with planned slack in the day. Again, to reduce anxiety... [chuckle] Actually, as I'm talking about it, I can't believe how much I actually am oriented to it and managing it. So it's interesting to kind of actually talk about it. So yes, I do have a lot of order in my day in... Lots of order in my day. I'm breathing rituals, I have a snack before bed, there are certain things that I just kind of must do, which I'm sure irritates, and I know it irritates my husband and irritates my family, but practice if there's a presentation. Preparing and practicing over and over again, making sure that I've got my talking points, things like that, to really balance it out, my diet, walks. I do a fast, a juice fast pretty regularly, just to kind of... Always try to keep a balance, keep a certain level of equilibrium, so lots of things.

0:32:25.4 Torin: So I know it's only been a week, last question, and certainly, I appreciate you for your contribution and your time, it's only been a week, but you sit in a room of 200, 300 leaders, senior individuals in the organization, and you made that revelation. I'm wondering, has anyone commented on that revelation in a way more than wow or thank you for sharing? Has anyone substantively walked up to you, emailed you, connected, communicated with you and said, We're going to change how we support you, how we develop you, how we inspire or resource you? Has that happened? It's only been a week. So, full transparency, but I'm curious.

0:33:12.6 Ciji Gardner: Right. So, I've had quite a number of people, like maybe a handful of people come up to me and just thank me for the bravery, I felt like, Yo, I did... For stepping outside of your comfort zone, so I really appreciated that. And I have had discussions with my leaders even that week just around the need for a different focus on DE&I internally. So, I think it has sparked perhaps a different way of maybe figuring out how to support me, 'cause I don't know that it's always no.

0:33:56.2 Torin: Ciji, I wanna ask that you mark your calendar and if you would be kind enough to join Julie and I, you know at some point in Q1, I'd love for you to come back and give us an update, you know, 120 days, 150 days, give it some time and let's see what may have changed both in you, as well as in your team and the organization, just around your revelation, your bravery, if you will. I don't want it to just be a moment that we experienced in the state where we were. I want it to be one of those things where we get to sort of check in with you in a bit of a therapeutic way. So, would you join Julie and I at some point in Q1 for five or 10 minutes, just to give us an update?

0:34:42.1 Ciji Gardner: Absolutely, and would love to meet Julie as I learn more about her and have listened to both of you.

0:34:47.6 Torin: Love, love, love that. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So, any closing words that you have before you get back to your wonderful day?

0:34:57.2 Ciji Gardner: Just to say thank you, thank you for continuing to push me. I just really appreciate you being open to having me and to exploring wherever this might go.

0:35:09.7 Torin: Ciji Gardner, a leader inside of a category leader. Maybe next time she'll let us know who she rocks with, but for now, she gets to be my personal friend. Thank you for joining us on Crazy and The King.

0:35:27.7 Ciji Gardner: Thank you so much.

0:35:28.0 Torin: You're most welcome.

0:35:33.3 Torin: Our Her Voice segment is where we amplify women that are making moves. Listen, I gotta tell you, truly, truly, truly appreciated the work that Yvette is doing and how she amplified just the story from Will Destrian, that it really sat on me, and it sat with me enough that admittedly, I didn't prepare this week for the women that are making moves in a way that I normally would. I decided this week, because we are and have talked about anxiety, that I'd give each of you as listeners a bit of a challenge, because we are in the month of October, National Disability Employee Awareness Month. I wanna send you on a bit of... I'm gonna use this term affectionately. I wanna send you on a bit of a internal scavenger hunt. You heard Ciji reveal that she stood up in a room and she bravely shared that she suffered with anxiety, had never, certainly never said that in a room that large before. May not have shared it with any of her colleagues before. I wanna send you on a scavenger hunt this week.

0:37:22.3 Torin: And this week, what I'd love for you to do is make an extra effort to dig into your Slack channel, comms, the relationships that you have with your leaders, with other women. I am speaking specifically about women. And I want you to amplify, if you have anyone on your team, in your business unit or your department that is a woman, that operates at a high capacity, fully engaged, an example, a model, if you will, but that one of her or their intersections happens to be anxiety. I want you to find a way to amplify them, and I want you to amplify them, whether it be through a virtual coffee, you making the investment, perhaps you take them to lunch. Maybe you sit and learn from them like I did today, how you might support them better, how you might be a better ally to them with their hidden disability. How you might create a better, more safe space, work space where others feel like Ciji did, and they are able and willing to reveal to you that they are operating and operating with this disability.

0:39:09.5 Torin: That's my challenge in Her Voice this week. I wanna see if we can do how Julie and I in the show, build better culture, better business units, departments, better teams, better workplaces, but the only way that we can do that is not only through the act of listening to the podcast, it's about taking some action. And so in Her Voice this week, I'm challenging each and every one of you as listeners to get more intimate in your workplace, learn more about the people that are in your workplace, and let's see if we can do the tenets of this show.

0:39:55.6 Torin: One quick thing before I get to a resource. I wanna share Psych Congress Network. They actually put out a report. I wanna say their website is... Oh my gosh, it's a long one. I hate when we have these long websites. But this is an article dated from February of this year. Just go out and Google Psychiatry and Behavioral Health Learning Network. I'm gonna share that with you. If you can't find this article. The title of the article is Mental Health of US Workers Hit All-Time Low at End of 2021. The article was written by Jolynn Tumolo. And in the article, she really highlighted how so many people are struggling, but she really amplified that a lot of men are struggling.

0:41:11.5 Torin: And so I don't know what your organization may be doing around hidden mental illness, mental health, mental awareness in the workplace, but my hope is that all of us are knocking at the door of Human Resources, knocking at the door of how we are curating benefit schemas, knocking at the door of how we are truly supporting our people, because just because COVID is leaving, there are still aspects of humanity, real life, that will remain with us forever, and so I'm hoping that we do a better job of addressing this subject in our workplace.

0:41:53.7 Torin: Another resource, HBR, Harvard Business Review, has curated a Mental Health and Wellness kit. It's virtual... Or digital, I should say. You can go and download it. They pulled together 23 research-focused HBR articles that will empower and support your employees well being. And there's a price for it. So if your HR team hasn't done anything, or you just want to do a little bit more, this digital collection includes some of the latest research and advice from leading experts on facing anxiety and uncertainty, work-life balance for mental health, emotional agility, supporting your team's mental health, and combating burnout.

0:42:37.2 Torin: So maybe the HBR digital Mental Health and Wellness kit is a resource that you can take advantage of. Got some practical tips, some coping tips, some guidance frameworks and tactics. Even has some discussion questions that you can take advantage of, so that may be something that you consider. And last but not least, Disability Twitter. Each week, we pick out tweets from the disability community. Now, full transparency, this week, none of the tweets that I have have the hashtag "disabilitytwitter," but the tweets that I picked out do have the hashtag "anxiety." Queen of Blur, this one was really good. I liked the Queen of Blur. Let me just bring that one up really quickly. Queen of Blur said on Twitter earlier in the week, "When your trauma, trust issue and anxiety hits you, you will always feel lonely. When your trauma, trust issue and anxiety hits you will always feel lonely."

0:43:50.5 Torin: Another one that I found on Twitter for the week is coming from... Her handle is The Spooky Kiwi. The Spooky Kiwi said, "Maybe anxiety is just your mind warning you that you're constantly surrounded by the wrong people." I want that to sink in. "Maybe your mind is just constantly reminding you that you're surrounded by the wrong people." And last but not least, a good resource, this is coming from abroad, it's Anxiety UK. On Twitter, they are @AnxietyUK. They are the UK's leading anxiety charity. Now, they let you know on Twitter that they cannot provide direct support via Twitter, but I ran through their timeline and saw a number of resourceful articles that you can refer to.

0:44:48.4 Torin: Look, that's it. This episode is over. Missing my podcast partner, gallivanting across Europe, doing some things. I'm sure she's being productive. She and I exchanged a couple of text messages prior to her leaving, so I know she's having a good time. Shout out to you, Julie, where you are over the unleash folks. Make sure you have a good time. I close reminding each and every one of you to share the pod with your digital tribe. That's it. I'm not gonna give our whole close because I'm not really supposed to be here. I just want you to share the pod with your digital tribe. For now, Jay and I, are ghosts.

0:45:33.7 Speaker 3: See ya!