Sackett Saves the World

0:00:02.9 Torin Ellis: It's time to stop dealing and start demanding. It's time to stop being PC and start being transparent and authentic. It's time to get real. Prepare yourself. It's time for Crazy And The King.

[music]

0:00:31.1 Julie Sowash: Welcome to Crazy and The King.

0:00:33.5 Torin Ellis: We spell as C-R-A-Z-Y. And...

0:00:37.9 Julie Sowash: Crazy.

0:00:38.3 Torin Ellis: The King. Somebody asked me who was the king?

0:00:38.9 Julie Sowash: [laughter] Really?

0:00:40.5 Torin Ellis: Really.

0:00:40.8 Julie Sowash: Really? They were standing with you.

0:00:42.4 Torin Ellis: But it's all good.

0:00:43.5 Julie Sowash: Hey, I'm the crazy one.

0:00:45.6 Torin Ellis: How are you?

0:00:46.6 Torin Ellis: That's me. I'm pretty goddamn good. How are you?

0:00:47.2 Torin Ellis: I'm Awesome.

0:00:49.2 Julie Sowash: Good. It's been a fucking hell of a summer, right?

0:00:49.8 Torin Ellis: And excited about our next guests on the podcast, but it has been a hell of summer, and actually this person we've been rocking with... I know personally, we've seen him in New York. We've seen him in Boston. We've even seen him in London.

0:01:04.2 Julie Sowash: Oh yeah.

0:01:05.0 Torin Ellis: I think that there was a news flash when we were in London about somebody... Never mind. No, that wasn't him.

0:01:08.2 Julie Sowash: Wait. No. I was drinking beer the whole time, so I missed whatever the hell that was.

0:01:11.1 Torin Ellis: There was somebody else. But he's an awesome individual, and I'm looking forward to chatting with him, so...

0:01:15.3 Julie Sowash: Alright. So...

0:01:16.3 Torin Ellis: You wanna introduce him or you want me to do it?

0:01:18.2 Julie Sowash: No. I wanna do it.

0:01:20.3 Torin Ellis: Go ahead. I got you. Ladies first. Yeah.

0:01:20.4 Julie Sowash: Alright, so welcome to Crazy and the King. Mr. Tim Sackett.

0:01:23.2 Tim Sackett: Yeah, thanks for having me.

0:01:25.7 Julie Sowash: Thank you for joining us today, it's so exciting. You're I think our fourth interview, now that we've gone to this format, so it's super fun and I'm loving to get to know even more people in our industry.

0:01:35.1 Torin Ellis: Yeah, and by the way, for those of you who are new to our podcast, the format that Julie is talking about is we record together, Julie and I once a week. And then on the off weeks, we are bringing experts in and, people that are influencers and people that make things happen in our space because we richly believe that there are some great voices that people need to hear about. So we have one of them today.

0:01:58.9 Tim Sackett: That's cool. When is he coming? Or her?

0:02:00.7 Julie Sowash: But well, we're just gonna use you for right now.

[overlapping conversation]

0:02:04.1 Torin Ellis: You'll be standing in... This is a practice run we're on right here. Practice run.

0:02:06.6 Julie Sowash: Practice makes us better.

0:02:07.6 Tim Sackett: Yeah, absolutely. Correct. Practice.

0:02:09.4 Julie Sowash: So, Mr. Sackett. So, our audience is primarily a D&I audience so people who are super invested in diversity. So if they don't know you, which is rare, I get. Tell us a little bit about you and what you do and about your awesome book, The Talent Fix.

0:02:25.5 Tim Sackett: Yeah, so I consider myself, I guess, a practitioner at heart in terms of recruiting, but I've also worked about a decade in HR. I have a Master's in HR. Really got into blogging and writing in this space about 10 years ago with Fistful Of Talent on Kris Dunn's site, and then a couple of years of doing that, and then I started my own site. And crazy things happen when you start writing and podcasting and talking on the internet. People think you know what you're talking about and they invite you to...

0:02:54.5 Julie Sowash: Thank God for that.

0:02:55.6 Julie Sowash: All over the world to come do stuff which is kinda fun. It's cool. My wife likes the trips. And then out of that came a book, because again, as the audience builds over time. When you first start writing, and you have this blog and you have literally 10-25 people a week, whatever it is, reading your stuff, they're all fans. They come and they just love everything you say. And you're just like, everyone's happy, and you're just like, "This is the greatest thing." As the audience grows, some of the haters come out and then you have people... I have people that come and read me every day that I know don't like me, waiting for me to do something wrong, so they can just kill me.

0:03:26.9 Julie Sowash: So they can call it.

0:03:28.1 Tim Sackett: But as the audience grows more and more questions from I mean literally all over the world come in where it's like, "Oh, what would you recommend for this? And what would you do for this? And what would you... " And it gets to the point where you just don't have the capacity to respond.

0:03:37.7 Julie Sowash: Right.

0:03:38.9 Tim Sackett: And not that Midwest kind of person. Like I just, I can't not respond, but then you're up weekends and nights trying to just even respond to emails. So eventually, I just wrote the book and said, "Well, here's what I would do from literally day one through whatever to help you attract more talent. To get more talent. Fix your recruiting." That was the biggest thing. People call me and go, "We're broken. And then what would you do?"

0:04:04.6 Torin Ellis: Yes. So let me go back to... First of all, what are your social media handles?

0:04:06.0 Tim Sackett: Alright. I'm at TimSackett, branded everywhere. So if you Google Tim Sackett, it's me, and then there's one other Tim Sackett in the world, he's a truck driver at a Chaplain out of Minneapolis. I'm not him...

0:04:17.5 Julie Sowash: Not that guy.

0:04:18.3 Tim Sackett: But it would be very cool if I was that same guy. Tim Sackett recruiter and Tim Sackett truck driver at Chaplain.

0:04:23.2 Julie Sowash: Would it be?

0:04:23.7 Torin Ellis: Absolutely, so you said something in your intro. A master's in HR. And that hits me because a lot of people are writing articles and thinking about where is HR now? Even I remember Lars put up an article earlier in the summer and said... I think he asked the question, "Should we call it HR or should it be something different?" I can't remember.

0:04:47.9 Tim Sackett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. I remember that.

0:04:49.2 Torin Ellis: How he phrased that, but when you think about your master's in HR, when you achieved that, where we are now in terms of economy, platforms and gig, do you still... Does the version of Tim now still go to school and get a Master's in HR? Does he look for something different? Is he applying it? And I'm really curious about that because we got some listeners that are coming through the pipeline and they may wanna know how to shake their academic pack.

0:05:16.6 Tim Sackett: Yeah. I bet once a week, I get asked that question through either a LinkedIn message, email. Someone that read something and sends it out, and it's usually, "Should I get an HR degree? Or should I get an MBA?" And across the board, I always say MBA. It's just more transferable. You don't know if you're gonna be in... And again, if I'm... It's one thing, if I'm gonna go to HR. I'm gonna be in HR. I wanna be an HR leader and that's all I wanna do. But what we see is, is this cross-functional kind of, "Hey, somebody in sales got into... Is running HR now or somebody in Accounting went here, and so for me, why can't you be an HR leader and then go run finance or go run operations? Well, if you have an MBA, it's easier to do that. If you just have an HR degree, people are always gonna view you as an HR person.

0:05:58.8 Julie Sowash: Right.

0:06:00.3 Tim Sackett: The education stuff has changed so much. When I got my degree, my master's thesis was on women in leadership. I grew up... I was raised by a single mom who was one of five sisters. My sister was the first grandchild. I was the first boy in the family. So I literally, the female influences in my life were insane, and then when I started working in HR, I worked in... My first real HR job was in retail, and it was that 70/30 split, 70% female, 30% male, but then in leadership was completely flip-flopped. And I was raised by strong women, I didn't understand why we were doing this, why was there only men that were leaders and not the female? So I wanted... In my mind, I'm a data... I love data. So back to your question to... I think if I wanted to go back, I would probably get a degree in data science, because I'm just always fascinated by how data can really tell the true story of a lot of stuff, or at least it'll help us down that path. And so for me, I wanted to see the data and understand, Well, it must be a performance thing right? Men are just better leaders, right?

0:07:04.3 Julie Sowash: Okay. That's what they tell us, yes.

0:07:05.1 Tim Sackett: That's who we are. And so I had at the time, over 300 locations that were being either led by a male or a female. Obviously there was way smaller female. And then they had dynamics of their teams that they were leading and all these retail locations spread across the country. And so I got to dig into operational data, financial data, and take a look, does a male or a female run a better location, or why are we hiring more males than females, blah, blah, blah.

0:07:35.2 Torin Ellis: The irony in that, Julie, is that when you think about the book and the first line or a line on a particular website says, "This is for every leader that's been told to fix a broken hiring process but needs a specific place to start." And so for too long, I say this without any apology. For too long, we've leaned on white men and men in general, saying that they are the ones who can fix some of these problems, and yet Tim is writing a book to simply say, I see this sea of men who are leading organizations, yet I need to write a book to help the men fix their broken system. That's the irony in the book.

0:08:16.8 Tim Sackett: Well, and in HR it is mostly... And again, if it's written for the HR and TA leaders, again, the majority of those are still gonna be female, even in the leadership roles when you take a look at it. But again, I didn't write it necessarily that you had to be an HR or a TA. You could be anything.

0:08:33.9 Torin Ellis: Okay. That's good.

0:08:34.0 Tim Sackett: Because I think...

0:08:34.5 Torin Ellis: Agnostic so. So Role-agnostic.

0:08:36.7 Tim Sackett: Yeah.

0:08:36.8 Torin Ellis: Got it.

0:08:36.9 Tim Sackett: Because I think what happens is you get so many people that get into the role and they're like, "Hey, by the way, you're now gonna run HR for the company or are you gonna run TA, and they came out of somewhere else. They have no idea what they're doing.

0:08:46.9 Julie Sowash: So and here's the thing that I think a lot of D&I/business leaders/anyone that doesn't work in TA doesn't understand, is the tech stack. And what those challenges and those vendors and all of the different systems that are sort of semi communicating with each other, and how they impact whatever your role is. So like me specifically, helping companies recruit people with disabilities. When I started this venture five or six years ago, I understood HR, I understood data and I understood Disability. I did not understand TA tech, I did not understand that process, and I started working with my first company and I'm engaging with 10 different vendors to get to day one, and then you think about all of that in terms of how it impacts the job seeker. And I think as D&I leaders, I think a lot of times of people that are already internal. But this is what I love about this, and I actually shared your tech stack diagram with my team because they went like, "Who are all these organizations that you're talking about? What are all of these different acronyms?" And I was like, This is what you need to understand.

0:09:56.5 Julie Sowash: When we're talking about creating opportunities for diverse communities, this is what we're going through. And I think any good D&I leader can be an expert, 'cause it's a lot, but they can have a better understanding and it will make them better D&I leaders and better leaders within their corporations, because they know the processes that happen there. And I just think that's so impactful, I just love the basics, getting to that piece.

0:10:20.8 Tim Sackett: Well, you know the people that are developing the technology for the most part, aren't practitioners, they don't know what we know as leaders within the HR field. What they know is technology, and they see a problem, problem is we have an opening, we need people for that opening. And then they just solve that problem in the fastest way possible. They don't look in to say, Well, wait a minute, part of the problem is we have an opening, but what we really need in that opening is X, Y, Z or whatever, and now what's go... That hasn't evolved to that point yet, I think we're getting closer and in where we can turn some of that stuff on. But then even then that's problematic for companies to determine, well, what should that be and how should that be. And I mean, that just opens up a whole another box.

0:10:58.6 Julie Sowash: That's a whole another can of worms. Right?

0:11:00.6 Torin Ellis: Yeah, you do a lot of writing, you do a blog each and every day, you send out a number of great articles inside the book, 150 pages or so. I'm curious as to what was the biggest revelation for you in this process. It took you six, eight months to put it together. What's the one thing that kinda jumped out that surprised even you?

0:11:20.4 Tim Sackett: For me, in my mind I had such a clear vision of how I would come in and do something and fix something right? Because I've done it, so that was... So I just like, Well, I'm gonna share it and I'm gonna do it. And as I started to look at all the research and technology and just other examples from other companies and people, what I realized was there's a million ways to actually solve and fix talent. I just had one. And so then it was like, "Oh, well, should I write that? Or should I add that? Or how do you add that?" And eventually, you just had to take a stand and say, "Okay, here's what I think is the best." But I actually changed some of my own thought processes on what I would do and how I would change that. And some of those are just like how potentially before I would train a recruiter or select a recruiter, or measure a recruiter. I really came from an agency perspective, and when I started to look at most of the people who are gonna buy this book are gonna be corporate Talent Acquisition leaders or HR leaders, or in that realm. What's a better way for them to actually have success doing that. Knowing that they're probably gonna have incumbents coming in, they are already working there and stuff like that, you just can't...

0:12:23.4 Tim Sackett: You can't grind out like you would in a sales role of an agency to train somebody. There has to be a little bit more softness there, but at the same time, there's a lot of value to that as well. So I want to keep some of that. But I really had to take a look, it really made me stop and look at sometimes at how I did things and then take a look at how others were doing it and figure out well, which one is better? And Let's figure that out.

0:12:43.4 Julie Sowash: Yeah, and that we need that simplification process and we just... An opinion is, it's your take on it, your judgment, but that at least gives people a criteria to look and make better decisions. And I wanna switch gears just a little bit, if we can. So I heard you say early, and I've heard you say often, after spending a lot of time with you this summer, a lot about mama Sackett, and how, what an influence she's been, and I know you've taken over her business and that. So can you kinda tell us a little bit about how she influenced your leadership?

0:13:14.1 Tim Sackett: Well, Yeah, I mean... She... I call her like the toughest bitch alive.

0:13:18.2 Julie Sowash: Nice.

0:13:18.6 Tim Sackett: Like if anyone everyone ever said like, "Hey, who would you never wanna negotiate with?" It was my own mom.

0:13:24.2 Julie Sowash: Oh, I love that.

0:13:24.5 Tim Sackett: Because she would just... I mean, she was unapologetic and... She would ask any question of anybody at any time, male, female, leader, non-leader. I have a great story, so who was the all-time Pittsburgh Steelers head coach? Chuck Noll, right? And so George Perles was a Michigan State head coach for a long time, like actually coached for Chuck Noll and had a big Super Bowl ring. So we're at a Michigan State game, I take my mom. George Perles is aging, has a big, giant super bowl ring, he's a God at Michigan State, and he's literally coming down an elevator with us, my mom's next to him, my mom has a big old diamond ring on, and he looks at her ring, she looks at his, and he takes his ring off and hands it to her, we're all in the elevator going...

0:14:09.3 Julie Sowash: Oh my God.

0:14:09.5 Tim Sackett: That's a Super Bowl ring from Pittsburgh Steelers, and she puts it on, that's nice, gives it back to him, and he goes, "Do you wanna trade?" And she's like, "No, mine's worth way more than yours".

0:14:19.2 Julie Sowash: Oh!

[laughter]

0:14:21.8 Julie Sowash: Nice.

0:14:22.4 Tim Sackett: And she is... That was her personality, of knowing the value in herself, knowing the value of what she liked, everyone we're all looking at her like, "Come on, mom. That's a Super Bowl ring." She didn't care.

0:14:30.9 Torin Ellis: But that's an interesting piece, and I love that the story and the power of your mom recognizing her power and what was important to her, but her passing is important to you, and we wanna talk about it because it's not necessarily talked about enough, and I think that if you look at most workplaces, the death of a co-worker is not something that's talked about.

0:14:56.2 Tim Sackett: No, yeah.

0:14:57.8 Torin Ellis: It may talk about the death of a family member for that person, so all of that external stuff, but what do we do when our desk mate or our office mate passes away? And that really is what it was like for you, am I right?

0:15:11.6 Tim Sackett: Yeah.

0:15:12.0 Torin Ellis: So what is it that you want us to consider and to be thinking about?

0:15:15.5 Tim Sackett: It is crazy, 'cause the last 10 years, I've run the company before that I worked for her, but even then, it was weekly communications, it's emails, it's all of this stuff back and forth. And as soon as you get that call that, "Hey, your mom's dead", you go through the initial shock, and then you go through, "Oh", like and again, like I'm a male, and then it could be... And that it doesn't have to be a male, I just, I guess that's who I am. And so I always was like, "I got this, mom. I don't need you. I don't need your input. I got this. I know what I'm doing. I'm running the company." And yet we would still have this...

0:15:46.0 Torin Ellis: And how long did you all have that working relationship?

0:15:49.2 Tim Sackett: About 10 years.

0:15:49.5 Julie Sowash: Wow.

0:15:50.4 Tim Sackett: And so after she passed, all of a sudden it was like, "I don't have this." I wanted that person to drop... And it was funny 'cause every time I would travel, I don't live close to big airports, so I always had at least an hour drive, as soon as I get home, get in a car, bam, call mom, and just have an update, like what's going on? Let's talk, here's what's going on. And even so, she passed like late February, I still will get home from a plane trip or whatever, and get in the car and that urge to have to call her, is so great. And so I bet it was six weeks where my wife noticed more than anybody, 'cause I would still go to work, show up, do the thing, go home, she's like, "Something is not right with you, you're usually just detailed and on it and constantly on top of everything", and it was probably six weeks before I felt like that fog started to lift live, and then what it made me think about was how many people that we work with, where either we're working with a coworker that passes or even a family member, they we will go, "Take three days. We'll pay for it...

0:16:55.2 Julie Sowash: Oh yeah, thanks.

0:16:55.3 Tim Sackett: You know, "Come back Monday", and we think all of a sudden, like on Monday, they're gonna be normal.

0:16:58.9 Julie Sowash: Right.

0:17:00.8 Tim Sackett: And how many people have been fired from a job three months after they had a family member or a close friend, or a coworker, or someone that passes, and we somehow, we just think like, "Well, they just stop doing it", and you have no idea the impact that has, and everybody grieves differently, you know, for, and it isn't, and you just don't know it until you're in it, and yet I just think we just as HR professionals, and like business leaders, we have really no aspect of how much of an impact that has on individuals.

0:17:26.8 Julie Sowash: Yeah, I mean, it's true. And as diverse leaders and as humans, we need to do a better job. So I lost my brother about a year and a half ago, he had mental illness, he committed suicide, and my team was good, right? And they were there and they gave me that time, but I would say it was several months before, and it's still...

0:17:51.4 Tim Sackett: Yeah, you feel numb, yeah.

0:17:52.4 Julie Sowash: It's still weird and numb and yucky, and it did impact my ability to do my job, and thankfully I have a leader who understood that and who I could say like, "I just can't today", and I had several of those days over the following months, and I thought what was unusually not unusual, but what was also really hard is we're in the business of disability and mental health, and I have mental illnesses, and then I told my team, this is what happened, this is because, and it did two things for me. One, it helped me to understand, even in my profession, how hard it is for others to communicate and understand when you lose someone in that way, but also how much more it means to do our jobs well and to change people's lives and get them to work and give them that opportunity, and that's really...

0:18:37.5 Julie Sowash: I mean, your mom gave you that, she set you up not only to understand how strong women lead and to instill that confidence in other women and in yourself, but also the impact that staffing and HR and talent acquisition make, because it does, systems and bullshit and all that, it saves people's lives because it gives people a purpose, and it gives them a paycheck and gives that opportunity in a way that I think it's really easy to miss every day, but when those kind of things happen to us and we lose that, then it kind of reignites, or at least, and it took me a while, but it reignited for me a passion for my job and for what we do.

0:19:15.4 Tim Sackett: Yeah, and I had some people within the company, I think too, as I was going through like probably the hardest period where I had gotten, like I had a couple really, I mean, I have a really good leadership team and a couple that would come to me and they were like, Hey, this person over here is like... They made the comment, your mom would never do that, or your mom would never say that, and that really set me off because they didn't know my mom, I knew her, but they thought they did because they thought they knew her as a leader, but they didn't understand all the conversation that took place behind the scenes that led to those decisions, and they were just looking at final outcomes going, Well, Judy would never allow this to happen or this, or whatever, and so you're also dealing with that in the workplace as well of being judged, I mean, I had have... I think a lot of people look at me going, Oh, shit, Tim just won the lottery, you know? And you're just kind of like...

0:20:03.1 Julie Sowash: Really? It's my mom.

0:20:05.5 Tim Sackett: Yeah, and again, it's the last thing. What I felt like I won was a whole lot of stress. [chuckle]

0:20:13.1 Julie Sowash: And you did. Right?

0:20:15.7 Tim Sackett: And the other stuff will play itself if I'm still alive from the stress, like heart attack I'm gonna have, but that's kind of one of those.

0:20:22.5 Torin Ellis: So speaking of writing, did you all change your employee policies? Did you update your manuals? And especially as a smaller organization, again, not knowing who exactly is listening, what did you all do, if anything?

0:20:35.2 Tim Sackett: Yeah, so we really did. I think we were at the typical kind of like just dumb policy, now that I think about it in hindsight, which is like three days if a non-family member and a week, if it's a family member, and all of these kind of like... Almost like you're judging who is important?

0:20:50.6 Julie Sowash: Yes.

0:20:50.7 Tim Sackett: And I said, it is done. You can take as long as you need.

0:20:53.5 Julie Sowash: Nice.

0:20:53.6 Tim Sackett: Just let us know. Communicate with us. If it's two weeks, if it's a month, whatever. We care about you, we care that you come back and that you're gonna be productive, and we're gonna make sure that happens, so just let us know. And...

0:21:06.6 Torin Ellis: I like that because when we were at Transform in Boston earlier in the summer, the guy from Cox, I can't remember his name, but one of the things that he said was that we should not all attempt to be like Google and Facebook, but that we should think about what's going to work inside of our organization and not just simply creating food and offering food and all that other... So you all just simply said, as a smaller organization, we're gonna offer this, it's of value to our people, have they received it? Have people commented?

0:21:36.6 Tim Sackett: Put it in a non-issue, because we really haven't had anybody that's lost anybody stuff like that, so we will see. But in my mind, I'm like, you know, when one of our female employees gets pregnant, has a baby, and she's gone for three months or whatever it is, wherever she decides to be gone, we figure it out, you know? So if somebody says like, Hey, I lost my son or I lost a... And I need a week or two weeks or whatever, we'll figure it out. I mean there's no difference to me in that.

0:22:05.4 Torin Ellis: Yeah, but see, it is a perfect complement to the book, The Talent Fix. When we talk about fixing broken systems, that part is an important part of the system and maybe one that we don't necessarily pay enough attention to. So here's what I'd love to do. I'm gonna do it because I think it is important.

0:22:22.6 Julie Sowash: Oh Lord. Okay.

0:22:24.5 Torin Ellis: How do we close it? How do we... If there's one thing that you need the leaders across the country to reconsider, what's that one thing? I love what Julie said around D&I, understanding the stack. What is it universally that we need to take away and begin to implement in our organization?

0:22:42.5 Tim Sackett: I really think that we devalue our people, and I make jokes about this all the time when someone's brand new at a company, I'm like, "Oh, you're still smart", like You haven't turned into an idiot yet, right? Because we all do. There's a certain period of time. It could be a year, it could be 16 months, whatever. At some point, you come into the organization brand new and you are a genius. Everything you say, everyone's listening to you. And then after they listen to it enough, you become an idiot. So for me, it's... We don't hire to fire. I'd never hire somebody going, I can't wait to fire Julie. I can wait to fire Torin. We never do that. And yet somehow, three months, six months down the road, they turn into a piece of garbage and we just say, "Nope, get rid of them", and for me, it's take a pause, understand why is that person failing? And what part have you played in it? And if you can change that part and give them another chance, give them another chance, figure it out. Because I find in so many organizations that their talent is broken because they're constantly churning recruiters, they are constantly churning operations people, and it just has... We have to give people a little bit more time.

0:23:39.4 Julie Sowash: And I think really the theme of HR right now should be, be more fucking human, and that's what you're talking about, right? Fuck the policy, fuck the process, be a fucking human and put yourself in other people's shoes and recognize that everybody has a value, and that value may be in a different place, it may be at a different company, but that's a long term... That's a human being on the other end of that paycheck, they're not just there to produce for you at the end of the day. So Tim, thank you for sharing mama stories. I love that. I mean, I think it's just so important. It's such a tough topic to talk about.

0:24:12.1 Tim Sackett: Thank you for having me.

0:24:17.1 Julie Sowash: But as leaders, we need to have those conversations more. So Torin, any final thoughts before we go?

0:24:21.3 Torin Ellis: If Recruiting is the Tip of the HR spear, The Talent Fix is the best primer on how to wield it.

0:24:27.0 Julie Sowash: There you go.

0:24:29.1 Torin Ellis: It's time for Talent Acquisition leaders everywhere to step up and to lead, said by Mr. Gerry Crispin, co-founder of CareerXroads and TalentBoard. You can find the book at The Talent Fix, you can find him online at Tim Sackett, T-I-M S-A-C-K-E-T-T. Julie and I love what we do, we love engaging with high-spirited individuals like this one right here. We'll be back again next week. You can find me on SiriusXM channel 126, Career Mix Sundays, 1:00 PM in the east. What about you?

0:25:02.7 Julie Sowash: And Lord Jesus, I have no idea what I'm doing next, so we are just gonna call it a day.

0:25:05.0 Torin Ellis: Lord Jesus she had no idea. Crazy And The King, we are ghost.

0:25:10.8 Julie Sowash: See ya!

[music]

0:25:10.9 Julie Sowash: Thanks for listening to Crazy and the King. I'm Julie Sowash with my co-host, Torin Ellis. Follow us on social media, but you can also now find Crazy and the King on Facebook, at our website, crazyandtheking.com, or follow our hashtag like you have been. This episode was produced by me, Julie Sowash. Our music is by the amazing DJ Selz straight out of Baltimore, and if you like our podcast, please rate it and share it with a friend. See ya!